Plowing vs. Salting

[cgland]

What do you guys find is more profitable? Plowing or salting? For example, would you rather a 3" snow storm or a 1" ice storm?

Chris

[Mbella]

There are always exceptions, but more times than not, I would take the 3" snow storm. You get to plow it and apply materials.

[cgland]

But if you separated each task and tracked them individually, which would you say is your most profitable?

Chris

[mrusk]

Mbella makes more when he gets paid to watch it rain!

[Colonial]

Salting by far!!!

Perfect example: one guy one truck goes out and puts 10 tons of salt down, do the math at what your salt per ton rate is. No wear and tear equipment, minimal labor,minimal risk and time left to go to sleep.

[Mbella]

But if you separated each task and tracked them individually, which would you say is your most profitable?

Chris

Plowing. For me, a one inch ice storm, like that which we just experienced generates a couple of treatments on walkways/roadways. Again, for me, your talking a bare bones force.

However, a three inch storm and we're bring out everybody. We're bringing out all subs, all walk help, skid steers, everything. On top of that, we'll get one, or two treatments. At a minimium, we'll perform one pre-treat and a final after all snow is cleared. About the same as the ice storm.

[cgland]

Your situation is a little different than most. You make your money based on how many hours you can bill. Most of us are the opposite. We price per push and are trying to get completed in the least amount of time. (not that you aren't) That being said, I am in the same boat as Colonial. Salting is our most profitable service..period. I will take ice events over snow events anytime! The cost of the material is minimal as is the labor involved.

Chris

[Colonial]

we are actually 40-40-20 Chris, My thing is that on my hourly i get piad per ton on salt, on average that place takes 35-45 tons of salt, then i have 2 properties about 100 yds away that are per salting, and then the seasonal. On a salting I get to billeveryone and have minimal cost on my seasonal. The biggest thing is I do not have all the headache of having everyone in. Salting i hand out the sheets or my foreman does and i basically drive around. Lot less stress and on an ice storm like Wednsday in to thursdya's we did 3 applications.

[Mbella]

Your situation is a little different than most. You make your money based on how many hours you can bill. Most of us are the opposite. We price per push and are trying to get completed in the least amount of time. (not that you aren't) That being said, I am in the same boat as Colonial. Salting is our most profitable service..period. I will take ice events over snow events anytime! The cost of the material is minimal as is the labor involved.

Chris

Hourly paying, Zero tolerance, curb to curb sites are what I target for my main sites. In my opinion, that's where it's at. I can only speak to that which I do.

Salting might be profitable, but how many treatments are you getting out of a one inch ice storm? On average, two. A one inch ice storm, we got two treatments last week. Add three inches of snow and on average, you are going to bill more dollars.

[Colonial]

Mike,

Your absoluely right, but with me i would bill more off a 3 inch storm, but when i add alll the overhead in i am making about 30% less then if i were just salting. yes in a 3 " storm i think everyone would bill more if set up like you, but lets say a guy does 90% per push, well most per push cut off's are at 3", so if we get lets say 2.5" you would make more then a per push guy in billable dollars, but your profit margin might be the same.
I always look at PM first before billable dollars, just the way i am. So if i had the choice between 20 3" storms a year or 20 1/2" salting events, i would choose the salting events. The sites i do are also zero tolerance, so in a 1/2" ice storm I would salt 2x's once at start and once at end. Granted I would not bill more dollars then you, but I would have overall less labor and maintenance and about the same materials, but in the salting events for me my profit would be 20-30%% higher. So lets say the 20-3" events bills out $200,000 and the 20-1/2 salt events bill out $100,000. If we set the Net of the snow at 30% that comes out to $60,000 for the salting it would be 50% net so the 1/2 would make $50,000. Only $10,000 less for probably half the work and bs.

This thread got me thinking so i figured out how we have been doing on saltings this year and i am happy:)

Again we all do what we like and no ones way is wrong and its nice we can have a nice discussion about this wihtout anyone calling names.....yet:)

[Mbella]

Mike, too many variables to compare. Like you said, per push would definitely be different.

I guess I'm looking at this as a single event. If we had one event for the year, given my setup, I would take the three inches of snow. Typically, we would salt twice and plow the snow, which would result in the same net profit as the saltings for a 1" ice storm and the additional net profit from plowing the snow. Obviously, that could not be the case if it was going to be warm on the day we finish but.....

Mike, since you do both per push and hourly, do you use the per push pricing on smaller sites?

[Colonial]

Mike your right there are to many variables to compare you to me and vice versa and I do apologize that was not my intent:)

I use per push on smaller sites only, for the fact that if I did them by the hour i would make less so I price them PP and PS so the custoomer has a fixed and i can tweak things to maximize profit. my big site, 80 acres i do hourly.

[Grn Mtn]

for me it would be 1" snows all winter long. This way I never have to touch my Resi's(upfront unlimited $$) and only would go do my commercials and salt (per trip $$$)

[zedosix]

Just to change it up a bit. Environment canada says last call we had 193 cm of snow since Nov. Thats about 75" or just over 6' of snow!

[Mbella]

Just to change it up a bit. Environment canada says last call we had 193 cm of snow since Nov. Thats about 75" or just over 6' of snow!


Get that much snow here and you could retire!:dance:

However, I'm sure up there, rates are low given the amount of annual snowfall.

[CaptainsLS]

"Just to change it up a bit" its f*!*#!! 55 degrees here. I could use a decent winter after the last 2.

[Ground effects NH]

Are unofficial totals at the house are at 55" This has been a great start since o2/03 winter. Between snow removal and pushbacks we need this January thaw. Then, bring on round 2 :boxing:

[Mike 33]

I hate ice storms a lot of customers dont understand you have to continue plowing just like snow or you could have a 3" solid ice skating rink. As far as profit wise salting is the way for me. For example i have 30 commercial lots we service. This morning we had a light dusting to little to plow but salt did wonders especially at 26 degree and forecast was to stay cold all day. 12 of my accounts are in a area where we have a colder climate than the others due to elevation. 8 out of these 12 i was able to salt this morning under a 2 hour period. Do the math at what i grossed, Most of them are $125.00 salting and a few are small $65.00 ones. It was a nice chunk of change for 2 hours of work. Next year i am going to have a drop in bed deal where i can run bulk salt at 1/3 the cost less than bag salt. Now i actually have my dump trailer sitting loaded with 2 skids of salt at a half way point so i dont have to come home during salting to re-load. I cant carry enough bag salt to salt the 24 out of 30 accounts when needed. I would actually like to give up plowing and just be able to salt after last plowings or situations like this morning, but i cant see that happening.
mike

[Ground effects NH]

Mike or anybody
What are you paying for a pallet of salt?
We get 80 lbs. bags- 30 bags to a pallet are $187
50 lbs. bags- 40 bags to a pallet are $180 I prefer the 80's if I can get them. We use these for the walks. The plaza lots, we use bulk loaded at $65 yd. Or I have a 60/40 Sand/salt mix at the house that we run.

[cgland]

I am paying around $2.90/50# bag. We usually buy a tractor trailer load at a time.

[Colonial]

I dont think we use any bag product. We are not allowed to use salt on walks only Calcium or Mag. Mike just wait until you get a V-box man or other bulk salter, i remember loading the salter with bags, now i am spoiled, lol. I used to pack a skid and a halg into the back of the old utiliy body truck with the Buyers Orange salter. Was fine at the start but man by the end of the season i was hating life.

[Mike 33]

Im paying 155.00 a skid of 50lb @ 49 bags per skid. I just picked up my 9th skid today. i wanted to get a ttl load but didnt have the contacts. I heard there are 18 skids on a tr. Im looking at bulk next year @ 50.00 a ton. I just dont like handling the 80lber's any more. Got old and fat. We are supposed to have a storm come in thursday.
mike

[paponte]

I can see a couple of things that would raise profits right away here for you guys. #1 If you are a hardscaper I would imagine you own a machine. Get away from bagged salt and get into bulk. Your throwing money out the window. Only bagged you should be buying is ice melt for walks. #2 I would never ever plow one of our lots at an hourly rate. Only hourly rates we do are for the town... period. Pricing should be per push, or per inch, based per visit or on a yearly average.

To answer the question in order, we make most on salt, salt/sand, liquid applications, machine work, Snow Removal, then plowing.

[CaptainsLS]

We have a set rate per inch and the machine rates are hourly ON TOP of the set price, then its per application on the sand/salt.

[scaper27]

We have a set rate per inch and the machine rates are hourly ON TOP of the set price, then its per application on the sand/salt.

thats pretty much how I do it here, almost exactly. Too bad we have not got much then an 1 inch at a time yet and its mi January