Opinions Please...

[Mbella]

About two months ago, we installed 28 Kichler fixtures on one of our hardscape projects. We used 19 powder coated up lights and 9 path lights. The path lights were copper china hats. Immediately after installation the path lights began to oxidize.

The customer didn’t like the appearance and asked if I could do something. We cleaned and sealed the fixtures and they looked great for a day, or so. However, they began to oxidize again and the customer wasn’t happy. We cleaned and sealed again and just as I expected the same thing happened. The customer isn’t happy.

This was the first time we used these fixtures and now I know. However, I feel the manufacturer should help us in some way because they advertise these bright shiny copper fixtures and within a few days of installation, that isn’t how they appear. Also, it is impossible to maintain that appearance.

[SCgreenscapes]

Unless they come clear coated from the factory, the "petena" effect should be expected. Unless you sold the customer on the fact that they would look nice and prity copper, i would tell the customer that is to be expected and they need to live with it. If you made a good bit of money off of the job, offer to take them back with a restocking fee of 25% to 50% and install something different like a powder coated version. You just have to lay blame somewhere, and i wouldn't guess it would be the manufacturers responsiblility. although, they may help you out. i would ask the manufacturer first then base your plan on that.

[Mbella]

Unless they come clear coated from the factory, the "petena" effect should be expected. Unless you sold the customer on the fact that they would look nice and prity copper, i would tell the customer that is to be expected and they need to live with it. If you made a good bit of money off of the job, offer to take them back with a restocking fee of 25% to 50% and install something different like a powder coated version. You just have to lay blame somewhere, and i wouldn't guess it would be the manufacturers responsiblility. although, they may help you out. i would ask the manufacturer first then base your plan on that.

Should the pitina effect be expected without the possibility of maintaining the shiny copper look? I don't understand. Kichler offers another finish, which is what the copper fixtures look like within a couple of days of installation and being exposed to the weather.

I think it is deceptive.

[cgland]

Whenever you hear "Copper" think green! If they look shiney out of the box, then I think Kichler did it's job, BUT if they were turning before you took them out of the box then you have a gripe. Whenever I am selling a lighting job, I ALWAYS let my customer know that any copper, brass, or bronze fixture WILL weather and patina. It doesn't matter if they were sealed or not. Sealing just prolongs the inevitable. All you need is a nick in that sealer and....BAM! blackness.

Chris

Chris

[Mbella]

Whenever you hear "Copper" think green! If they look shiney out of the box, then I think Kichler did it's job, BUT if they were turning before you took them out of the box then you have a gripe. Whenever I am selling a lighting job, I ALWAYS let my customer know that any copper, brass, or bronze fixture WILL weather and patina. It doesn't matter if they were sealed or not. Sealing just prolongs the inevitable. All you need is a nick in that sealer and....BAM! blackness.

Chris

Chris

I think I need to post a pic of the fixtures. Literally, these fixtures turned from day one. There was no hope of maintaining the catalog appearance. Hence, my gripe with the photo in the catalog.

Are you saying that there is no hope of maintaining any copper, brass, or bronze fixtures?

[cgland]

Not from the box. It has to be factory treated to maintain it's lustre. Case in point, brass porch fixtures....look great for a few years then as the coating wears they start to look streaky and dull. This is the beginning of the end. Once it hits that point there is no remedy.

Chris

[cgland]

I installed 15 Integral copper fixtures on a job this year and the day after I installed them they had black marks on them (where I put my fingers....the oil from your skin accelarates the process) I took a scotch pad and wiped them clean, but all this did was allow them to weather evenly.

Chris

[Mbella]

Not from the box. It has to be factory treated to maintain it's lustre. Case in point, brass porch fixtures....look great for a few years then as the coating wears they start to look streaky and dull. This is the beginning of the end. Once it hits that point there is no remedy.

Chris

A few years and I would be PAID!!

I couldn't get a few hours!!!

You are no help.:mad2:

[cgland]

Research your products before you install them and you wouldn't have this problem. Does that help!

Chris

[Mbella]

Research your products before you install them and you wouldn't have this problem. Does that help!

Chris

No, it wouldn't help. Another tidbit: Upon seeing the fixtures oxidize, I called my distributor. I told him what happened and he called the Kichler rep. The Kichler rep. informed my distributor if we cleaned and sealed, all would be well. WRONG!

[NCSULandscaper]

you talkin these type fixtures?

http://www.cascadelighting.com/images%5Ckichler%5C15316.jpg

[SCgreenscapes]

I don't know what the problem is. People pay big money to get the patina look.

J/K, i know that people have preferences and that is whay they are expecting. I am just trying to cut the tension around here.

[kootoomootoo]

AS above people pay a premium to get the patina look ...true ..maybe you guys
know this but the fastest way to get copper to patina is to pee on it.

Tradesman do it all the time.

[Mbella]

you talkin these type fixtures?

http://www.cascadelighting.com/images%5Ckichler%5C15316.jpg

Not exactly, but similar.

[yardpro]

Mike,

sorry to say this, but all copper fixtures will patina, period. They are supposed to.
Make sure when a customer picks them out you explain to them that they WILL not stay shiny.

The only way to keep the shiny look is to clear coat them with a clear polyurethane coating.

clean them VERY well, use gloves, and spray them with a can of clear polyurethane.
but next time make sure you are very clear with your customer that they will patina rapidly

[SzotAllied]

You could also try a good carnuba wax, like mother's. This should help POSTPONE the patina. What did you try to seal with the first time?

[JZap]

From copper.org:

If a natural statuary finish is desired on copper, weathering can be arrested at the desired point by applying a suitable oil, e.g., raw linseed oil or lemon oil. Depending on the prevailing climatic conditions and the degree of exposure, the frequency of oiling may be at intervals of from one to three years. Instances have been recorded where the initial oiling applied in two thin coats has preserved the statuary finish in excess of ten years.

Copper and its alloys are made of nature's pure elements and as such harmonize with other natural materials with which people find an instinctive affinity. The fact that they change color as they weather gives them, and the buildings they adorn, an extra measure of life and character as first class building materials

I had a customer who wanted his copper flashing to stay shiny, so i asked a local coppersmith and he told me to clean it, polish it, apply linseed oil and then also put a coat of good wax a couple days later(he recommended Meguiar's, but any good on will do). I used this technique and it worked for around 4 years now.

[SCgreenscapes]

Good info John.

I had an appointment last night with a customer about lighting and was showing them unique's bronze lights and made sure i told them in advance that if they did not want the green patina look that they go with a powder coated finish of their choice vs. a natural finish.

[Evening Star Lighting]

I don't think applying any wax or sealer will last very long. Wax will slowly melt away and disappear from the heat of the fixture and hot summer sun. Oil- of any type will not last either. Metal can not soak up oil (like wood), so therefore one rain or washing with a irrigation system and the patina process starts all over again.

If you were to polish the fixtures, then clean them with a solvent to remove all wax and compound, you could clear coat them with a good quality UV resistant finish. This will work for the most part, but the edges will eventually start to patina and work it's way towards the flats.

Your selling the client on a lighting effect, which is appreciative at night. They should not be so bent over the appearance of the fixtures. At first- it's a drastic change.. and they will slowly turn that copper brown, with some green over time.

[mdvaden]

I came across the same situation with fence post caps.

The copper ones - you may have seen them.

Used them several times with no discoloration, then ones I put in last year, one third are turning green, the rest staying copper.

I'm going to paint them with a textured green Rustoleum in the future, and skip the copper look.

But I'll keep your comment in mind about the lights though, if copper is really what someone wants - polished copper that is.

[ZX12R]

Mbella,what are you sealing the fixtures with? I use a lot of Cast products which are brass.I tell every customer that they will weather to that of a penny and eventually ,they will go to a verde green.

You can also give WD-40 a try. Cast recommends it to keep the original finish but I do not tell customers this.There is no way I am going to apply WD-40 to every fixture every few weeks or so.:loco:

Another thing,once you allow the fixture to weather,you can forget about WD-40 bringing back the original appearance. Ask me how I know. LOL

[chesie]

The WD-40 will work for about a year. We use Cast products most of the time and it works. As far as shiny copper goes...I am no expert. But for the bronze the WD-40 works for about a year and it will also restore the finish if you are only into the "whitish" part of the oxzidation(sp).

[JZap]

Although linseed oil doesn't "soak" into the metal (which no one claimed that it did to begin with) it creates a film which lasts a little longer. The flashing at my old boss' house lasted about 3 years before needing recoating. If you're really looking for a definative answer call a coppersmith, he's the pro, not us. We could talk all day about techniques, but let's face it a coppersmith would have the best answer.