Questionable marketing strategy.....

[CaptainsLS]

I wasn’t even going to post this but I'm curious about how other professionals would react to this strategy. The outdoor firePLACE concept has been a subject I've been researching and playing with for a few months now. I think I'm comfortable with building one, but I'd like to use the kit first just to get the hands on experience and follow with building one from scratch. I looked into building on at my house but I can’t justify buying the materials. So here is my idea; I found a website that sells royalty free photography used by marketing companies to build advertisements for business. I think it would be difficult to market the concept without showing it, but once I get my foot in the door to the right person I can sell the design. What do you think, be honest.:spy:
Chris

[SCgreenscapes]

here is what i am doing. As most people know, i am only part time until March and i have a limited portfolio. That does not mean that I don't have the skills to do something, it just means that i have not had the opportunity. I put two photo sections on my new website. One will be tabbed as "Portfolio", the other will be tabbed "Design Ideas." I don't see a problem with it.

[CaptainsLS]

I don’t see a problem with that either; I think that’s a good idea. In this particular situation I'm talking specifically about the outdoor fireplace, as I find it difficult to market something so specific that I've never built.

[mckeeland]

i have yet to do a outdoor fireplace myself. like you i thought about doing one at my own house, but i dont want to spend the money right now. i estimated a job for one earlier this year. i was referred by a customer that loved are work. i met with the customers 3 times, brought samples of materials, drew a sketch of the finished product, showed are portfolio of other work. then a friend of mine that does hardscpaing as well was called to estimate the job. at some point my name came up and they said they didn't know if i would be able to handle the job. my friend assured them that i was more than capable and that they would get just as good as a job with me and he did not want to bid it. if anything i am overqualified for the job, its not that big of deal, just have not done one. the never even raised that concern to me for me to reassure them. next time i am taking pics and labeling them design ideas. people are weird, they will hire a hack jsut because he has done a million hackey jobs. just look at that thread on LS about the job the guy didnt get because he didnt have experience.

[CaptainsLS]

I feel the same way. I'm comfortable with all aspects of the construction. What do you think about my strategy?

[mckeeland]

i think it is fine, as long as your are not claiming them as your work. i have section in my portfolio that is labeled design ideas. different pics i have seen in catalogs that i think really look good. i have a portfolio as thick as a phone book, there are just some things i have not done yet.

[SCgreenscapes]

I am glad to see others using the same ideas i am. I told my web designer that i wanted a "Design Ideas" page b/c when i am sitting down with a customer, a lot of times we will google some pictures of things they like so that we can visualise everything. I told him that if i had all those ideas on my website, i could direct them there and get them familiarized with my site at the same time. If they new they could use my site for design ideas, it would lessen the chance that they would run accross another company in the area who has done exactly what they are looking for. I may be over annalyzing it, but it seems like a good strategy to me.

[mrusk]

I see no proablem with it. We are all in business to make money and its a dog eat dog world. I see no proablem using photos that are not yours in advertisements. Just don't say "Mrs. Jones loved the fire place i built for her."

[Colonial]

I am at odds about this one. I agree somewhat of what SC and Captain say, like using a photo as an idea for a customer. I think the problem i would have is if someone for example, went to CGLand's website grabbed a photo, printed it out and then put it in their portfolio or advertisement, the majority of people are going to assume that the job is yours. I agree business is business but there needs to be a line drawn in the sand that you are not willling to cross.

[Mbella]

Captain, I see no problem. What's the difference between that and using a manufacturer's catalog that contains many pictures of work that was performed by others?

Like Matt said, as long as you don't pass the work off as your own.

[mrusk]

I know some very successful companies that do this. Face it, you get catolog quality pictures its going to take a 2k a day photographer. For 2k you are lucky to get 2-4 usable photos. Nevermind, that it could take years for a landscape to mature and fill in to be considered catolog quality.

[mckeeland]

i would never take a pic off of someones website, but if it was on a manufactures website or on random images on google why not. it like the EP Henry catalog is labeled the idea catalog.

you know what, i am sure people have copied pics from my website, and probable even used it to design a job. i dont really care, as long as they are not passing it off as there own.

[CaptainsLS]

Thanks for the feedback. If it was just going to be shown to a single customer after I had the opportunity for the estimate, I wouldn't even be asking. My intentions are to use the photos in marketing material (newspaper adds, website, etc.). Matt, you raise a good point, the whole reason royalty free sites exist is to service companies that are in need of quality photography that depicts their industry. I wouldn't want to drop 2k for a picture that might not even appeal to my target audience.

[SCgreenscapes]

Colonial, i can see the point you were making about going to Chris's website and grabing a picture, but remember that is illegal and will get your site banned from any search engine at the least. I believe what i was talking about and Captain, was taking photos that pose no copyright issues or have been approved. I have a whole cd with pictures that my local Pavestone plant gave me. they were used to create thier recent catalog. my rep gave me permision to use them on my website. I don't see what the big issue is as long as it is legal. If you don't show customers pictures of things you have not done, let me in on your strategy to sell the customer on that idea? I am always looking to learn.

Thanks,

John

[Colonial]

I may have stated my point the wrong way, showing pictures of ideas is one thing, like someone stated thats why techo and Ep henry and the rest put out those great catalogs. But I have been in one or 2 situations in my areas where guys have grabbed pictures off of Techo's website ( like there Quarry stone wall) and show it to potential customers trying to pass it off as there work. I have also had someone local actually be stupid enough to copy photos of our jobs from our website and put them on there own website. Whether we want to admit it or not there are folks that do this. Also there is a difference between showing customers pictures of work you have not done and passing it off as yours. I do not think Captain you or anyone else who is posting on here would do something like that, but someone needs to point out to a newer guy that doing something like that is not a good idea.

My secret John, is not really a secret, when i meet with a customer I bring the manufacturers catalog and phots of jobs we have done. From there we try and point out ideas from our pictures and the catalogs that they may like. They know that the job photos in the catalog are not ours, but also see our photos and see we are capable of doing the work.
As for the search engines we reported it to them and they told us because the Copyright info was not updated they would do nothing.

[Mbella]

Colonial, passing another's work off as one's own, is definitely crossing a line. Good to see we all agree on that. Sorry to hear some scrub took credit for your work.

This seems to be a very sensitive topic. I am pleased to see that this thread has remained professional and no pizzin matches have sprouted. I'm not surprised though.

[CaptainsLS]

This seems to be a very sensitive topic. I am pleased to see that this thread has remained professional and no pizzin matches have sprouted. I'm not surprised though.

I had reservations on posting this, as it can be construed in different ways. There seems to be an overwhelming amount of professionalism among the members. I will not be telling customers I built the fireplace, just simply "getting their attention" so I CAN build them a fireplace. I'll let you know how it works.
Chris

[Mbella]

I had reservations on posting this, as it can be construed in different ways. There seems to be an overwhelming amount of professionalism among the members. I will not be telling customers I built the fireplace, just simply "getting their attention" so I CAN build them a fireplace. I'll let you know how it works.
Chris

I didn't think for a minute you would do that.

Good luck! Sell one and post some pics!

[kootoomootoo]

Plenty of guys using manufacturers catalog pics and passing them off as their own on websites....YET......I havent seen one with a disclaimer saying the pics arent theirs...actually it pisses me off.

[cgland]

I am at odds about this one. I agree somewhat of what SC and Captain say, like using a photo as an idea for a customer. I think the problem i would have is if someone for example, went to CGLand's website grabbed a photo, printed it out and then put it in their portfolio or advertisement, the majority of people are going to assume that the job is yours. I agree business is business but there needs to be a line drawn in the sand that you are not willling to cross.

It's funny, because thats what happened earlier this year. A guy on LS was stealing pics from me, GM, Koot, and others and was putting them on his website. I called him and threatened to sue him...he took them off real quick.

Chris

[R & R]

I to tried to sell the idea of a outdoor fire place to the last large customer and they shot it down when they seen the added cost, so as a alternet I offered a firepit, they shot it down also (reason for that was they had bought one of those metal things).

The biggest mistake you can do is try and pawn someone elses work off as your own, it will come back and bite you right where is hurts the most. In your wallet not to mention crushing your reputation.

[kris]

Same opinion as others here.. it is okay as long as you don't pass it off as your own.
The thread brings up an interesting point.... how do you sell work that you have never done? I believe you should be upfront with the client and perhaps offer a discount???

Dont use these pics as neither one of were finished in pics ;)

[CaptainsLS]

how do you sell work that you have never done? I believe you should be upfront with the client and perhaps offer a discount???

Thank you for seeing the underlying point of the thread. I’m talking about a problem with a potential solution. My idea on how to reassure the customer given the fact I have yet to build one is simply use the firebox kit. It guarantees a functional flue & chimney. I really want to build one from scratch, but the kit is a good starting point.

Stealing picts off another website is bullsh8t, I don’t need to be told "not to do this" and as a matter of fact financially, I have no need too either.

[kootoomootoo]

Kkris can I "borrow" those pics...preferably in 300dpi.

[CaptainsLS]

Kris, that fireplace looks amazing. Could you tell me how you handle the build? Do you block it or use a kit? Flue or no flue? That open area looks like it could get pretty windy how did you handle that with the design? Do you remember the footer size?


Kkris can I "borrow" those pics...preferably in 300dpi.

So much for professionalism and intent to help the industry as a whole.

[STLPONDS]

Does the outdoor fireplaces put off a good amount of heat compared to a firepit?

[Colonial]

That thing is awesome looking!!! Now i am going to have to build one at my house... have to send the wife away for that one first, lol.