ICPI or Field Experience?

[MuirView Design]

What do you guys feel is more important to a customer and/or overall job success? I ask this because I know several guys (predominantly landscapers) in my area with ICPI cert stickers all over their ads and trucks, who put in some really questionable installs. In all actuality, it makes me question the effectiveness of the course in general and if a guy has little or no field experience, but can get work by flashing a cert at a homeowner, does this help or hurt the industry? So, a piece of paper or a portfolio, which seems to be more important to your customers? Do any of you feel you are better hardscapers because of your certs vs. your field experience?

BTW - I'm not knocking ICPI or NCMA certs, because I think they are a necessary thing to aid in educating contractors and protecting public interest.......but are they enough?

[JFMX345]

I can't ever remember a home owner knowing about the ICPI cert.
Customers only care about the finished product.
Having said that, the ICPI course is a must take for new guys, and I feel it has good info. Weather contractors choose to use their new found info or not is up to them. The certification is only as good as the guy holding it.

There is no way to eliminate the short cutters, but educating the customer is definitely the right step.

[SCgreenscapes]

ICPI certification can show you how to become a hardscaper per say, but experience is what makes you a Craftsman/Trade Professional. ICPI is like saying you have a college degree. It shows you put forth the effort to get the correct education, it does not mean you have the on the job experience that employeers are looking for. That comes more from personality and experience. I say that b/c i have seen plenty of people out there that have years experince but don't take the time to do the job right. That means they just have enough experience to know what they can "Get by with."

[GDK]

I plan on getting this certification, however would never do business w/o the field experience. I do believe that the certification is important and even if homeowners don't know exactly what it is, they do realize that some sort of certification is being held. I wouldn't say that the cert hurts the industry, but field experience is vital.

[cgland]

The way I look at it is this: It is our job as professionals to educate the customer. We are the front line in this war between lowballers and trade professionals, so we must sell quality, both in our work and our company. The information and guidelines that ICPI gives you are THE most important aspect of hardscaping....Knowledge of soils, base prep and compaction. Your whole project rests on this "small" piece of info that you tend to take for granted. If your base fails...you fail. That being said, you still need the field experience to be able to tell the differences between suitable soil and unsuitable soil, what proper compaction FEELS like, etc. The things that can't be taught are the details like laying out a smooth radius, detailed cutting, and having "an eye" for what looks pleasing. JMO.

Chris

[mrusk]

Chris what do you think of the contractors who think they no better tha icpi?

[mckeeland]

ICPI is good, but certainly not enough. EP Henry(paver manufacturer) goes though greater lengths to verify that you are a qualified contractor than ICPI. If they really wanted to have qualified contractors out there they would inspect past work and annually check current work, check references with current and past customers, talk to your suppliers. Honestly until they require permits and inspections and maybe a licence for hardscaping your going to have all kinds of installers out there and even then you will still have hacks. there is a market for every kind of installer, you just have to find the customers that want your standard of work.

[Mbella]

Which is more important to a customer? I guess, based on my experience, I would have to say field experience. In four years, I haven’t had one customer ask me if I am ICPI certified. However, many ask how long I’ve been doing this type of work and ask to see pics of my work, which, to them, demonstrates the quality and scope of the work I do.

I didn’t become certified to use ICPI as an advertising tool though. I took the class in order to increase my skills and knowledge. I had great instructors and it was definitely worth the investment.

[scaper27]

I have not taken the ICPI course yet, although I am planning too.I don't think most customers would even know what ICPI or NCMA is unless you told them about it and they heard from a friend or neighbor.I would say Field experience because you could show them a portfolio of past work that was done and how many years you have been doing and so forth.

[GSVA]

Hands on knowledge is good for doing the job as a big picture, but a cert like ICPI will help you with the technical part of the job that is vital. I think both are key.

[kootoomootoo]

The dunny paper I wiped my arse with 2 hours ago has as much importance to a customer as ICPI does. TRUE,

[STLPONDS]

I take cert classes to learn new skills and ideas. It might pertain to the field or the business administraions. The bottom line is continuing your education and your field experience.

[Mbella]

The dunny paper I wiped my arse with 2 hours ago has as much importance to a customer as ICPI does. TRUE,

Have you offered both to your customers?

[yardpro]

i agree that we should have the ICPI cert. But having it does not make you a good hardscaper. A good hardscaper comes from experience good design sense, and quality control

[kris]

I took it really because I was just curious about what it was about. Got in there and kinda got nervous about a test...been I don't know how long since I was in school ..25 yrs at least.
I thought it was awesome .... I found out why things I had done in the past were right and why some were wrong ... In the early 80s all I used for a while was limestone screenings...and I wasn't the only one. Lots of different things have come and gone.
Has it made me a better landscaper.... yes. Why? Because it gave me more knowledge for teaching. I can now tell a young guy why. Not just ,"do it this way because I said so"
I would recommend it to anyone.

BTW ..I think I got around 98% on that damn test ..guess I still don't know everything LOL

[cgland]

Matt - Guys that think they know more than ICPI are one of two things: a) Foolish - Because they believe that their "technique or materials" has worked for many years and they don't see the need to change. Well, my opinion on this is that if they think that they know more than someone that spends millions of dollars on R&D they truly are foolish and b)Poor businessmen - Being ICPI certified certainly can't hurt your business. It puts a feather in your cap, increases your professionalism from the customers POV, and can actually make you a better installer.

Chris

[Hokie84]

I think the ICPI and NCMA certification classes are certainly helpful and an excellent starting point. However, I have never had a homeowner that knew about them prior to my sales presentation. What I say to them is: " I am an ICPI certified installer. Having a certification doesn't mean you do excellent work, and not having one doesn't mean you can't do excellent work. What it does show is that I am committed to the industry, continuing education, and following best construction practices." Then I provide them with my portfolio and list of references. This way I have hopefully educated them and set myself apart, without making a negative comment about a competator that lacks a certfication, or endorsing a competitor with nothing but a certfication.

[zedosix]

Good course for sure, if you follow their guidelines. When I took the course in 1996 I had the hardest time convincing some of my customers that coarse grain sand was the proper screenings to use. I actually lost some work because other contractors were telling them that I didn't know what I was talking about. I try to make a point to all my prospective customers to know the difference between proper compaction, screenings, restraints, poly sands etc so when its time for them to get other estimates (because alot of them do) they are prepared to ask the right questions. Its all about getting contractors on equal ground, and hopefully on equal (or closer) pricing ground.

Icpi helps to sell a job, but field experience and a large portfolio is crucial to filling up the summer work schedule.

[dclark2037]

I took the NCMA class and exam today. It was a very good course and like said above I learned alot that i thoought I already new and new ways to do things. They give you things to look for before you start a job e.g. are there any utilities going in front of my wall after I put this wall up that will effect my global stability etc... My geared toward the commercial side of installation but very well worth the 175.00 I spent. Also the cert is to you and not your company. It only means you have been giving the education to do the job right, not that you are doing the job right. Nothing beats field experience.
David

CG, BTW I plugged the website today to the ones putting on the class and the attendees that i spoke with. It was put on by GeoStone and SimsStone.:dance:

[cgland]

Thanks David! The more the merrier.

Chris

[JZap]

I agree with most replies to this thread. We're ICPI, NCMA and EP HENRY AUTH. Installers. To some customers they only really notice the EP Henry logo and I have to explain what ICPI & NCMA is to the customer. I usually explain is as the college of pavers and retaining walls. I also tell the customers that ICPI and NCMA set standards for the industry to ensure proper installation. We happen to put in writing that we will meet or exceed ICPI & NCMA specifications for proper installation and also a 5 year warranty on our installs. I think the customer knows at that point they will not be disappointed. That is as long you do a good job!