Raised Patio/Natural Stone

[CaptainsLS]

This has been a nice project thus far. It's beyond "bridging the wall footing" so I figured I would run a new picture thread. Any questions or comments are welcome. More picts to come...

[CaptainsLS]

.............. .......... ....

[mrusk]

Do you not parge your block below grade?

[CaptainsLS]

We will be, we just ran out of sand and I wanted that part to cure first. The back and sides aren’t parged yet either.

[MuirView Design]

Lookin good so far Capt'n. Did you end up using wall ties for the double sided cmu?

[Mark]

what are you using for veneer and cap? Any lighting involved?

[CaptainsLS]

Lookin good so far Capt'n. Did you end up using wall ties for the double sided cmu?

I did not. I wanted to use Steve’s recommendation of using ladder truss, mainly just to familiarize myself with the application in the event I ever need to build a wall that required it. Only 2 courses of block will be retaining anything; crushed stone with drain tile at that. I looked into getting the truss from my supplier, but with the dimensions of the wire in stock I would have had to cut it. Ultimately, we cored all the block.

[CaptainsLS]

what are you using for veneer and cap? Any lighting involved?

NewEngland Fieldstone mosaic for the veneer.

Caps will be bluestone stock, but I'll be doing the rock facing on both sides:humble:

[GreenMonster]

Chris, is the size of the wall longer than the original design?

what is the purpose of the parge coat?

[CaptainsLS]

Good eye GreenMonster. The bigger wall is now 4’ larger than the original design. The existing slab kind of protruded out to where I wanted the footing, so we just moved it over some.

As far as I’m concerned, “parging” concrete masonry units has two purposes. On one hand parge coats can be decorative (stucco, or some type of color finish) and alternatively a parge coat can seal masonry from water or other elements. It will also help take any of the imperfections out of my block work, like the joints that I tooled.

[CaptainsLS]

Laying the rock up. The mosaic takes so much longer than ashlar patterns. Stone work is not pointed yet and we are trying to maintain a 1/2” joint.

[MuirView Design]

Sweet bro! It's looking great. The veneer is coming out awesome....can't wait to see it pointed in.

[Mark]

Captain
Looks like you're cutting very little? Just hammering what you need to? How many square feet a day do you think you're getting? Looking good!

[custom patios]

Hey Chris, work looks good! A tip if you dont mind. Even when laying irregular instead of Ashlar try to maintain at least 10% of the stones with at least one side laid horizontal. this gives a roughly coursed look without laying it in coursed fashion. It also helps the eye maintain a sense of order within the busy structure of irregular patterns.It will come across a little more cleanly, and give your work that little extra edge over your competition. Shhh... its a secret. Not all laying techniques utilize this but take a closer look from now on and I think you may agree. this also helps when your laying stones which dont vary in size much like the ones you are using.Other than that you have pretty consistent joints.cant wait for some finish pics. nice job.

[CaptainsLS]

Thank you Steve, I will try to implement that. Good eye, the thin stuff is frustrating, today I was trying to explain to my guy that just because a particular piece “fits” doesn’t mean it “belongs”. I like to treat the veneer in the same fashion that I would if it were a full dimension wall. Pieces need to give the appearance that they are sitting amongst the other pieces and supported, rather than just “pieced into the wall”.

Mark- there are some cuts in there, not to many though. I’ve done all the cutting myself. A nice back cut while distressing the stone with the hammer will never let you know a cut occurred. I only get about 40 sq per day.:yield:

Thanks Adam! I'm dying to see some picts of the job you are on man....

[MuirView Design]

Thanks Adam! I'm dying to see some picts of the job you are on man....

We've actually been finished up with that job for a few weeks now. I was waiting to go back and take some better pics before posting. I have construction pics and a few finished pics...I'll try to find time to post some tomorrow.

[NewHorizon's Land]

Custom- Do you have any pics of what you are talking about? I will be doing two pillars with thin stone soon and want it to look as best as I can make it.

[custom patios]

Custom- Do you have any pics of what you are talking about? I will be doing two pillars with thin stone soon and want it to look as best as I can make it.

to give you a quick answer, no I dont. I could go into this in depth but dont want to steal the thread. Chris does nice work, I was merely suggesting that I feel that when working with a particular stone there are certain styles that can be used that will offer a nicer aesthetic appeal. You should really get very familiar with all types of stone and do extensive research on paticular styles of laying stone if you dont have a mentor to help you along. Laying stone is truelly an art form and takes a mason years to develop a more successful style with a particular stone.For example if you look at the work Green Monster recently posted utilizing a natural building stone and incorporated a bench area into the wall. He used a masonry application but with a dry stack look to give the wall a very stylized yet rustic look. He allowed the stones to "bulge" and exposed more of their face surface.Yet you can take that very stone and depending how it is laid, or if it was split and pointed would offer a completely different look. In my opinion Green Monster has a very good eye and chose a nice style for that application. Justin, I would spend alot of time researching tons and tons of pictures and go out and watch stone masons at work. Find informative sites on the web and subscribe. like building stone magazine.

[GreenMonster]

Chris, like I told you in the pm, looks real nice. I see you're getting primed for this weekend, huh?

Steve, thanks for the kind words. I have A LOT to learn about stonework, but I am finding it to be new and exciting compared to pavers.

a couple good books I've checked out recently that I would recommend:
1. The Granite Kiss
2. In the Company of Stone, Dan Snow
3. Stone by Design, the artistry of Lew French

Phenomanal stonework in all of them.

[GreenMonster]

Chris, I see you're using the top down veneer technique as well. Maybe that's a better option when you're capping?

[custom patios]

Chris, like I told you in the pm, looks real nice. I see you're getting primed for this weekend, huh?

Steve, thanks for the kind words. I have A LOT to learn about stonework, but I am finding it to be new and exciting compared to pavers.

a couple good books I've checked out recently that I would recommend:
1. The Granite Kiss
2. In the Company of Stone, Dan Snow
3. Stone by Design, the artistry of Lew French

Phenomanal stonework in all of them.


So true. I am bored with pavers.Probably because this year I havent been able to sell a unique application. Working with stone is very exciting and very challenging. I hope more hardscapers start to implement masonry into their sales.

[GreenMonster]

we are definately looking to sell more masonry in our designs in the future. we need to do some homework over the winter and get more hands on experience (with some home projects!) to be able to offer this service with a greater degree of confidence.

[CaptainsLS]

About laying the stone…bear in mind I’m cognitive of the era in which this house was built. This house was built in 1809. If this were some random patio with no specific house attached to it, you would see me using a “drystack ashlar pattern” like you see often from Mark. The drystack look is big now in the masonry field. That WOULD NOT look right at a country farm house from 1809 that has been restored to it’s original conditions. I’m not adding seashells to my mortar, or raising the profile of the tuckpointing lol, but I’m laying the stone to replicate a mortared “farmers wall” with a cap. I’m over tooling and burning joints just a bit for show, using a natural cleft paving material, and rock-facing every wall cap and stair tread.

Steve- your technique tip would work well in this application and I’m interested to hear more from you on stone patterns.:) I just thought I should get that info out there so it can be taken into consideration.

[NewHorizon's Land]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I will be looking into masonry this winter so we can diversify the company

[CaptainsLS]

Started in on the stair sets. Some of the veneer is tuckpointed by the corner of the wall, so that will give you an idea of the final look of the stone.

[custom patios]

that looks sweet Chris! the pointing makes all the difference. Glad to see you chose a suitable color mortar. Ive seen black before. hee hee. wait a minute... is that pointed?

[CaptainsLS]

I was kind of reluctant to show picts before I tucked it. I guess I just figured some of the mason guys would be able to envision the end result, kind of like the look of pavers without the poly sand! Thanks for the compliment Steve. No black mortar here, the stone is too light in color and exposed to too much sun for that look.:)

[custom patios]

I was kind of reluctant to show picts before I tucked it. I guess I just figured some of the mason guys would be able to envision the end result, kind of like the look of pavers without the poly sand! Thanks for the compliment Steve. No black mortar here, the stone is too light in color and exposed to too much sun for that look.:)

please, never be reluctant to show your work. i only make fun of work that is shown by someone who doesnt actually build it. you know... they just point the finger. seriously, when I show my work I expect people to tell me what they see wrong and I expect criticism. otherwise how can I be better! Its nice to hear compliments but I have never learned from a compliment. by the way theres a big smudge to the right.:)

[CaptainsLS]

Smudge!?!? I have no smudge, and if there is one….the home owner requested it that way…or wait….”that’s what they said they wanted” :boink:

[mrusk]

What is the width of the top cap for the wall?


Looks like they need to knock the house down and build a new one to be a better match with the patio!

[CaptainsLS]

Matt, I’m using 20” tread stock for the cap, all 6’ pieces. Bare in mind that I’m rock facing both sides so that might remove an inch or so from the overall width. The house is quite beautiful on the inside, all refinished wide wood flooring, etc. I don’t think they have done much with the exterior yet, luckily they are starting with the patio!

[Mark]

please, never be reluctant to show your work. i only make fun of work that is shown by someone who doesnt actually build it. you know... they just point the finger. seriously, when I show my work I expect people to tell me what they see wrong and I expect criticism. otherwise how can I be better! Its nice to hear compliments but I have never learned from a compliment. by the way theres a big smudge to the right.:)

hey, the finger pointer is an important guy too!!! :)

[custom patios]

hey, the finger pointer is an important guy too!!! :)

oh, he is. i'm always giving myself the finger.

[Mark]

giving yourself the finger or pointing the finger at yourself

[custom patios]

that depends on what I told myself to do

[Mark]

So are you like me? Your own worst enemy???

[Mark]

how's the progress coming? LooKing great I'm sure

[CaptainsLS]

how's the progress coming? LooKing great I'm sure

Actually....After the client and I sat down and looked at Adam's Travertine patio, we decided to rip the whole thing out and try to copy Adam.

This is what is looked like right before we ripped it out.

[MuirView Design]

Actually....After the client and I sat down and looked at Adam's Travertine patio, we decided to rip the whole thing out and try to copy Adam.

This is what is looked like right before we ripped it out.

:pound::pound::pound::pound:

You guys are moving right along. Funny, I was just thinking that in the future I'm going to build all square patios! More square footage with less work!

I've been meaning to ask....what was the structural purpose of the doing two rows of CMU, or was it just for aesthetics?

Let's see some close ups of the rock facing you did!

[CaptainsLS]

Using one width of cmu would have made the wall look unrealistic. Had the wall been solid stone, it would have been another foot thick. We didn’t want such a massive wall so we used split stone and faced the block, on the other hand I had to give the wall reasonable depth for realism an 16”of block works great.

[ClearValley]

Looks real nice, I may have missed it but what kind of stone did you use.

[MuirView Design]

Using one width of cmu would have made the wall look unrealistic. Had the wall been solid stone, it would have been another foot thick. We didn’t want such a massive wall so we used split stone and faced the block, on the other hand I had to give the wall reasonable depth for realism an 16”of block works great.

Makes sense. How thick is the thin cut you're using?

[CaptainsLS]

NewEngland fieldstone. The stone is either hand selected to be with in the requirements or is sawn cut. 1 1/2" or under.

[CaptainsLS]

Moving along (very slowly with only 2 of us). Heavy wall caps are heavy.:yield:

[CaptainsLS]

Had to take a 2 day break from this job and get some cobbles into a driveway.

[custom patios]

thats very interesting. i have never seen a dry lay cobble put into a driveway before, just masonry. nice job on the wall Chris it came out looking great. I really like the wall thickness.

[CaptainsLS]

Dry lay all the time on those for us. I would say that half the homes here have 'em. All I've ever done is dry set them with stone dust joints, and dont experience much movement at all.

[Mark]

Dry lay all the time on those for us. I would say that half the homes here have 'em. All I've ever done is dry set them with stone dust joints, and dont experience much movement at all.

Half???? What are you smoking? 99% of the driveways on the cape have a cobble apron! Of course accompanied by Nikko Blue Hydrangeas! You can't own a house on the cape unless you have those 2 landscape items. Looks great man! The patio and veneered wall look spectacular. Hmmmmm.....wasn't there a veneer job somewhere that you and I were going to team up on and install together???? I can't recall...must not have been a very high paying client!:):):)

[CaptainsLS]

Half???? What are you smoking? 99% of the driveways on the cape have a cobble apron! Of course accompanied by Nikko Blue Hydrangeas! You can't own a house on the cape unless you have those 2 landscape items. Looks great man! The patio and veneered wall look spectacular. Hmmmmm.....wasn't there a veneer job somewhere that you and I were going to team up on and install together???? I can't recall...must not have been a very high paying client!:):):)

You’ve been in no-mans-land for too long, we are now pushing Endless Summer Hydrangeas.:gossip:

I’m still game for the veneer work. I bet its cold up there now, does the homeowner even have heat up there?

[Mark]

You’ve been in no-mans-land for too long, we are now pushing Endless Summer Hydrangeas.:gossip:

I’m still game for the veneer work. I bet its cold up there now, does the homeowner even have heat up there?

even if he did he wouldn't waste his money on us!

[GreenMonster]

Hey! I was wondering why my ears were ringing.

Veneer priority is shifting to the fireplace. that'll be fun too, I promise.

Heat will be ready after this weekend. Wood furnace is being installed!

[Mark]

Hey! I was wondering why my ears were ringing.

Veneer priority is shifting to the fireplace. that'll be fun too, I promise.

Heat will be ready after this weekend. Wood furnace is being installed!

WTF - Captain are we sure we want in on this deal? We offer exterior veneer support of a few columns, then he takes the libert of adding on some irregular blue work, and now he's again taken the liberty of adding a fireplace. Our couple of days pitching in a friendly helping hand has turned into a full time position and the worst of it........the homeowner won't get off my back about it. He calls me today....when are you gonna be here? Will you have this done for me before winter? You know I'll hire someone else for free if I have to! Can you work extra at nights on this? Even better....he told me my kids could help too and he wouldn't report me to the labor board if they did.

This guy obviously has nothing else better to do with his time than sit at home micro managing his free labor.

[GreenMonster]

Mark, if you bring your kids, make sure you supply them with proper PPE. I don't want OSHA coming down on me.

[Mark]

All set, made their fake ids too saying they're legit.....we're good for next weekend, confirmed it with wifey tonight. The boy will stay with her and Alexa will come to entertain Tammy and Maddi. Will we have a third helping us?

[CaptainsLS]

Almost done.:yield: Laying the flagstone. Natural cleft full color pattern bluestone. The 2 of us can lay about 200 sq a day (that’s with laying it twice, once for position and another individually leveling each piece)

[MuirView Design]

Lookin good Chris. Can't wait to see it pointed and acid washed! Any close ups of the rock faced edges?

[GreenMonster]

Chris, looking real nice.

Individually lay each piece? Are the tolerances close enough that you could screed sand like pavers and then lay faster?

Hey, how about laying some stand-up broken blue this weekend? check your pm's.

[cgland]

Looks great Captn. Any close ups? Keep em coming

[MuirView Design]

Chris, looking real nice.

Individually lay each piece? Are the tolerances close enough that you could screed sand like pavers and then lay faster?

Hey, how about laying some stand-up broken blue this weekend? check your pm's.



Mark, I think he's wet laying. But I could be wrong.

[Mark]

Looking good Captain! Quite an improvement to that home, I'm sure the homeowners are excited!

I'm pretty sure he was dry laying as he had an old slab that existed and then he was just filling in the void between that slab and the new wall and laying through it.

[CaptainsLS]

Mark, I think he's wet laying. But I could be wrong.

We are dry setting all the flagstone. Overlaying the concrete slab and transitioning over to the new area filled with modified. Ill get some close up's, I keep taking shots from the roof of my skid trying to keep the same angle.

GreenMonster- We do screed out the screening bed, but we go over every piece again:).

[CaptainsLS]

Ok, this is as finished as we can get, I doubt grass will grow thick till the spring. This was a great job for us and I think it turned out nice. Unfortunately I didn’t make much money, and we used 20% more materials then I had accounted for in the initial estimate. The fact that we were too picky with our materials and generated more waste than the product specs, and the constant need to reevaluate original measurements and footing specs accounted for the 20%. I don’t think I’ll be absorbing the overage, but I sure will meet them half way on it.

[mrusk]

Masonry is what took you to long?

[CaptainsLS]

No, as far as the labor end I was right on with the numbers. We just used 20% more materials, which in a way creates 20% more labor. :)

[custom patios]

Wow nice work man, I'm really diggin the dry lay flag. I dont do dry lay flag anymore because of the high maintenance but it really looks great. nice color blend too. do you normaly leave the dry joint or do you also but them up Chris? The patio side of the veneer work in pic 3 looks awesome. nice joint consistency and balance. I can tell you took your time there. top notch work Chris.

[custom patios]

my only criticism (sorry just had to) is watch out for those long vertical running joints between veneer stones, other than that I love it. two over one-one over two rule should always apply. not always easy though.

[CaptainsLS]

Thanks Steve, your compliments are much appreciated, as I know you have an eye for natural stone masonry. The flag work is tough, there is just so much variance in the stone that it takes an enormous amount of patience to get it level. I’ve never used flag with out maintaining joints because of the variance, but I love the look. I have one source that can get the right stone for that application if I can ever work it into a budget.

[custom patios]

ahh yes those damn drunks who cut the flagstone. they're always out of square and off more than a few hairs. ive always butted them up and trimmed the side for the next laid piece when necessary. just keep measuring to make sure your not screwing up your pattern measurements. you can use grey poly in those joints instead of quarry dust and feel a little more confident. Chris do you use a wooden stake to aide the setting process?

[CaptainsLS]

You think I would use dust in my joints? lol. That’s gator dust polymeric. I only have 1/2" joints but I figure the gator dust has more polymer in it than the run of the mill stuff. What exactly do you use the wooden stake for?

[custom patios]

i should have known better about the poly, my apologies. the old wooden tree stake is a great tool for distributing the shock from the blows of your mallet. it will aid in setting the stones faster and more evenly and eliminate those "rockers" a little easier. I dont know if you use a mallet or not but if your serious about setting flastone throw those damn mallets away and pick up a tap devil. they transfer more impact force through the stone. lay the stake on top of the flagstone your setting (lentghwise and across) as you dead blow directly on top of it to more evenly distribute the force and level the stones quicker. you can also use the stake to span adjacent stones while leveling to aid in setting them flush. i've adopted this method from when I was hand setting clay bricks and would use the stake to aid in leveling several bricks at a time and to check relative grade of nearby bricks that have been set. I love your flagstone patio, it reminds me of some good ole days. Very nicely done.

[CaptainsLS]

We use dead blow hammers made by Stanley. They work great for many things, but if there were a hammer more specific for flagstone I would love to know where to get it. Spanning multiple stones with the stake makes sense; I’ll have to give that a try the next go-around.

[MuirView Design]

I use my tap devil almost daily for an assortment of things, and I love it. I wouldn't say it completely replaces a dead blow hammer though, because there is definitely no "cushioning" the blow from one of those.

Job looks great Chris! Are you doing beds around it like in your design? Do you have any closeup shots of the veneer? I'd like to try and make a sketchup texture out of it.

[mckeeland]

Really looks good Captain. how deep is your frost footing for your walls?

[CaptainsLS]

Thanks Jay, Footings are 3' deep. Thats 2 full trucks:scared:

[Mark]

Captain
Clean out your PM box - has Greenmonster filled it up on you requesting your help this weekend? Will you be involved with us?