Wet Laid Flagstone

[kris]

Who can teach this old dog a new trick? ;)

What I am looking for is a step by step process for wet laying flagstone.

This is not something we offer .

I helped do one job back when I was 18 yrs old .

First we installed a concrete slab (cant remember if we reinforced it) about 2-3 inches below finished grade.
Then we laid out our flagstone, cutting pieces so that our gaps were around 1/2 inch.
We then disassembled it ..setting the pieces out on the lawn ...pretty close to how it was to all go back together.
Spread the mortar about one inch thick , doing fairly small sections at a time...maybe 5 square ft.
Grouted it.

Thats is it to the best my memory serves .... am I even close to doing correctly?

[mrusk]

You basically remember the right steps. It just takes alot of practice to sling mud quickly when you are not used to working with it.

[kris]

That looks outstanding! How many square ft could 2 men do in a day once your base is set?

[mrusk]

That looks outstanding! How many square ft could 2 men do in a day once your base is set?

My 2 guys could only pump out around 70 sq ft a day. This is with cutting each peice to get a 3/4-1 inch joint.

[kris]

is that 70 sq ft completely finished? ..or still the grouting to do?

[mrusk]

is that 70 sq ft completely finished? ..or still the grouting to do?

Grouting still had to be done. They could joint 350 sq a day though.


I have no idea on how my time ranks compared to others. All i know is i figure 100 sq feet per a day.


Also figure about 60% more stone then the supply yard tells you. They told me 200 sq feet per a pallet. I ended up getting around 115 per a pallet. Cutting uses up stone quick.

[CaptainsLS]

I second that....we get 70 sq from irregular flagging pallets, they say 150 sq

[kris]

Great info so far...anything else? ...also ... you said you figure about 100 per day but aren't getting that ... is that just a lack of experience thing or should you be changing the way you bid?

[CaptainsLS]

Kris, Are you using irregular flagging or thermal pattern stone?

[kris]

Irregular ... when you say thermal pattern, they are a finished face and cut?

[CaptainsLS]

The reason I ask is obviously your prep work is important, but I would try to find a thinner stone for the wetlay. Dry set we use 2 1/2" thick flagging, but we have a company that can source us specific size stone. My avatar is "thermal cut"

[NCSULandscaper]

i cant remember how many guys were on this job, i think it was 4, and they got the whole thing done in 1 day with the grouting, would take longer for more uniform joints though, but iniform joints wasnt what i was going for on this job...........already had an existing concrete patio there, just wet layed irregular blue ontop of it

[cgland]

Captain - I would call that pattern flag. Doesn't the term thermal designate the finish of the flag?

Chris

[CaptainsLS]

Yeah, heat treated. you are right (sometimes)

[tthomass]

If I'm laying squares........my goal is 100SF a day but I need a steady supply of mortar. If I have to do my own labor too, it kills my time.

[mrusk]

Great info so far...anything else? ...also ... you said you figure about 100 per day but aren't getting that ... is that just a lack of experience thing or should you be changing the way you bid?

Lack of experience.

Next one will be bid high enough.

[MuirView Design]

Thermal cut can be any variety of stone, it just means that it's all cut at high temperatures to ensure exact thickness and square. Thermal cut is not something that one uses for irregular applications as it just wouldn't be cost effective. When figuring pricing for irregular flagstone, it's important to weigh out all the factors and take into consideration the size of your pieces.

This is our first big irregular wet laid job from last year. We took up an existing dry laid pad, dug and poured a 5" floating reinforced footer and then wet laid it back together. We severely underestimated the time it would take to lay this thing because we didn't account for how small the pieces were. Pointing times will also vary depending on the amount of stones in a given area. Turned out nice though!

[MuirView Design]

i cant remember how many guys were on this job, i think it was 4, and they got the whole thing done in 1 day with the grouting, would take longer for more uniform joints though, but iniform joints wasnt what i was going for on this job...........already had an existing concrete patio there, just wet layed irregular blue ontop of it

Quite frankly, I don't think this is possible. How can you lay and point in the same day. It takes a least 24 hours for the flagstone to set so you can walk on it to point it in. Unless your guys pointed as they went...and this is a big no no!

[NCSULandscaper]

Quite frankly, I don't think this is possible. How can you lay and point in the same day. It takes a least 24 hours for the flagstone to set so you can walk on it to point it in. Unless your guys pointed as they went...and this is a big no no!

yea it is, we used a rapid set mortar for this job because it was down to the last day and these people had a wedding the next morning, this mortar setus up in 2-3hrs

[-EGLC-]

I really like the look of natural stone over pavers.

[Ground effects NH]

The reason I ask is obviously your prep work is important, but I would try to find a thinner stone for the wetlay. Dry set we use 2 1/2" thick flagging, but we have a company that can source us specific size stone. My avatar is "thermal cut"

Very Nice
Do you use any bonding agent added to your mortar?

[CaptainsLS]

That was probably the best compliment I could get, because.......That job was dry laid
We are on a wet lay now and yes we will be using a bonding agent in the mortar.

[Ground effects NH]

That was probably the best compliment I could get, because.......That job was dry laid
We are on a wet lay now and yes we will be using a bonding agent in the mortar.

.....:peep:.....Sorry

[SzotAllied]

MRUSk,

Really nice looking work.

[SzotAllied]

[QUOTE=MuirView Landscape;1148]Thermal cut can be any variety of stone, it just means that it's all cut at high temperatures to ensure exact thickness and square. QUOTE]

Not to split hairs, but I believe "thermal" refers to the treatment after saw cutting. The top face of the saw cut stone is "heated" VERY quickly with a torch to cause a crackling effect, giving the stone a semi rough texture. I beleive the saw cutting is done with water, at room temp.

Although, "thermal" does indicate that the stone was first saw cut on all six sides, ensuring some degree of uniformity.

[GDK]

What does everyone use to grout the joints....a mortar bag?

[MuirView Design]

Although, "thermal" does indicate that the stone was first saw cut on all six sides, ensuring some degree of uniformity.

That's what I meant. I guess thermal top is the heating process to give character to the face. (Off topic, I've been down to the new Allied Supply in Pottstown, nice guy running things down there. He was very helpful)

Regarding grouting, or pointing as it's called. I'm curious also how you guys do it. I used to use a mortar bag, but switched to a dry pointing method because it was cleaner. To do dry pointing, I make a semi crumbly mix, wet enough to stick together, but dry enough that it wont stick to the stone and work it off of a board or spackle hawk into the joints. I fill the joints to the top and strike them as I go, which forces all the air pockets out and the water that's trapped in there as well. I'll also keep a cup of water with me to dip my pointing trowel or paintbrush in to add a little water to the joint after its filled. The trick to this method is to get the right consistency of your mortar and not making too much at a time because it will dry out quickly. A long time mason showed me this trick and it's worked like a charm. I've never had an issue with doing it this way and he has work that is 10+ years old that the pointing hasn't even cracked on. Plus it's fast and clean once you get the hang of it.

[mrusk]

My guys jointed with a wet mix and just went over each stone with a sponge as they went? What do you think of this method?

[MuirView Design]

My guys jointed with a wet mix and just went over each stone with a sponge as they went? What do you think of this method?

How wet? Did they use a bag or do a slurry? It works both ways, it's just a PITA to me to constantly have to sponge and change water. You still end up acid washing in the end anyway.

[mrusk]

They used what i belive is a margin trowel.